The crash of 2008: A mathematician's view

December 9, 2008

Markets need regulation to stay stable. We have had thirty years of financial deregulation. Now we are seeing chickens coming home to roost. This is the key argument of Professor Nick Bingham, a mathematician at Imperial College London, in an article published today in Significance, the magazine of the Royal Statistical Society.

There is no such thing as laying off risk if no one is able to insure it. Big new risks were taken in extending mortgages to far more people than could handle them, in the search for new markets and new profits. Attempts to insure these by securitisation – aptly described in this case as putting good and bad risks into a blender and selling off the results to whoever would buy them – gave us toxic debt, in vast quantities.

"Once the scale of the problem was unmistakably clear from corporate failure of big names in the financial world, banks stopped lending to each other," says Bingham. "They couldn't quantify their own exposure to toxic debt – much of it off balance sheet – so couldn't trust other banks to be able to quantify theirs. This led to a collapse of confidence, and the credit crunch, which turned a problem in the specialised world of exotic financial derivatives into a crisis in the real world. Once the problem became systemic, government had to step in to bail the system out with vast quantities of public money."

Professor Bingham suggests that to learn more and predict financial future, we should look to our past, likening the current crisis to the 'Tulip Mania' in the Netherlands in 1636 where huge prices were paid for futures in tulips, which then turned out to be as worthless as sub-prime mortgages today.

Even Alan Greenspan, the long-serving former chairman of the US Federal Reserve, admits that mistakes were made in the past. To avoid repeating these mistakes, we need to learn from them. This needs a new mind-set, new policies, and much more proactive regulation.

Bankers complain that the risk models they used predicted problems as dramatic as today's only every few centuries. "This is like talking about the details of how to steer a boat on a river," says Bingham, "what matters there is whether or not the river is going to go over a waterfall, like the Niagara Falls."

Source: Wiley

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mysticfree
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 2.9 / 5 (12)
Absolutely! We should to look our past and see how well a completely regulated society prospers. I understand that the Soviet Union did quite well. Oh wait, it collapsed. Ok then, Cubans are among the happiest people on earth. Oh wait, they're trying to escape. Ummm... Mao Tse Tung's China? Never mind.
Roach
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 4 / 5 (8)
I agree that over regulation is bad, and personally I am against the government kick backs, I mean bailouts to the industry giants.

That said if the morons in Executive positions are going to beg the Fed for money and lay off Americans in favor of cheap overseas labor then I personally feel they are due a overhaul. Since the options are rather limited and I don't believe most Americans have the mettle for a real revolution, lazy cows, then the only remaining solution is the government steping in to fix things. Is the Fed Qualified to direct multi trillion dollar industries? No, probably not, but they could hardly do worse than the monkeys who were trying to do so until now.
lengould100
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 2.1 / 5 (9)
mysticfree: What an idiotic attempt. I suppose you're an executive on the SEC, right?
magpies
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (4)
I think we should disregard the past and instead focus on the future. WOrry about the past markets just makes the markets rocky... Of course this will probably happen even tho it is what I'd like to see happen cause people always forget about the past events.
superhuman
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 3.8 / 5 (6)
One of the key problems is too much consolidation.

Only if there are enough players present the system as a whole stays healthy. There has to be room for those who make bad decisions to fail without creating a domino effect threatening entire industry which forces a taxpayer bailout.
theophys
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 3.5 / 5 (4)
I agree with superhuman. There needs to be just barely enough regulation to keep any one industry from becoming large enough to ruin the rest of the economy. but it's also important that we leave companies enough wiggle room to try new things to turn a profit. Personaly, I think that an international cooperation is neccesary to form a large scale economic structure that will be able to avoid hard crashes like the one we are experiencing now.
DeadCorpse
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 2.5 / 5 (8)
"We have had thirty years of financial deregulation."

If you start off with a lie, you won't get very far. The sub-prime lending crisis got it's start when Democrat legislators forced banks to loan to people they knew were a credit risk. It was further exacerbated when folks like Barney Frank refused to modify those rules to prevent the very crash we are dealing with.

Same with the auto industry. Forcing manufacturers to make cars no one wants won't get the industry out of this slump.

Healthy economies are cyclic. These cycles are normal and predictable. Only when government starts mucking with things do we get boom/bust catastrophes like this.
powercosmic
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 4 / 5 (8)
To those who resent the idea of "regulation" I have to ask if they are happy with the current state of the economy and their own 401K's ??

It would seem that partisan minded rhetoric wins over rationality and facts. Given that many of us will one day be elderly to the point that we can no longer work it would make sense to have financial markets that are somewhat predictable.

This is not what we have today, Wall Street long ago became populated by individuals who aren't interested in building our economy but instead by extracting money from the financial system by swindles that are legal. To do this they have lobbied the government to change regulations or enact regulations that ALLOW specific activities. These permissive regulations are still regulations, only they are designed to allow Wall Street entities legal opportunities to give themselves YOUR MONEY.

The average Wall Street "fund manager" earns over $20 MILLION dollars per year.

We desperately need oversight of all financial institutions, especially Banks and Wall Street. We need regulations that are designed to protect the HEALTH of our financial systems and prevent ABUSE. This has not been the case with the last few administrations whose job it is to ENFORCE the law.
GrayMouser
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 3.7 / 5 (3)
Oversight is one thing.

Regulating something you don't understand is another. Especially when politics gets involved.
Doug_Huffman
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (5)
I think that there are some mathematicians of stature that would disagree with the 'need' for regulation. This has been a deep and difficult correction that, hopefully, has taught some lessons. Regulation not being one of them.

Prepare to be assimilated by the BOG. Resistance to Obamination is futile. BOG Brother is watching - Obey!
DeadCorpse
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 2.8 / 5 (4)
My 401k was doing just fine until "government" got involved, artificially inflated everything, and then yanked the rug out from under the markets.

Do we really want people who couldn't produce a NASA hammer for under $600 to be in charge of our Markets, 401ks, and the auto industry?

In private markets for autos, health care, etc... if someone fails to produce, or produces a bad product, you can file a lawsuit or criminal charges. Who do you sue when it's the government?
Soylent
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
The only thing worse than no regulation is bad regulation. Regulation has to be very carefully designed.
theophys
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 4 / 5 (3)
We need regulation. When things get unregulated, people get greedy and bad things happen. We obviously can't have too much regulation because that could stunt inginuity. But regulators need the authority to force companies to comply. Congress gave billions to the auto industry to reequip their factories for greener vehicles, but instead they used that money to make more gas-guzlers. What happened? Oil prices skyrocketed and people started ditching those monster-automobiles in favor of the hybrids that executives said wouldn't sell. Now the Big Three are more then a little screwed. Sometimes the regulations are put in place to avoid future pains and the sooner conservative America learns to accept limited regulation for the better good, the better off we will be.
Blair
Dec 09, 2008

Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
Consider the money systems in light of

http://www.physor...302.html

Why Life Originated (And Why it Continues)

Conservation of energy in non-linear mechanisms
is crucial, & that appears to include our brains too.

Huge spiritual questions arise with what made the Sun?

However, after there is energy and matter,
concentrated in suns, that can bounce off
of the surface of nearby planets, then ...

we have more & more non-linear functions
of life and consciousness, which are the
reality of meaning and purpose in life.

Any different human ecology now includes
the degree of conscious awareness that
we may have of how it actually works.

My bla, bla, blah about "paths of least resistance,"
is that they necessarily are paths of least morality.

Organizing resistance to change paths of least resistance
is something that should be done within thermodynamics.

Since it actually explains what already exists at present,
that is also the unitary mechanism of social structures,
that indicate the theory of what real evolution may be.

Government regulations are full of paradoxes.

The de facto regulation is done by
the best organized criminal gangs.

More of my kind of comments on $

"Some Monetary System articles"

http://www.mariju...rum.html
brant
Dec 10, 2008

Rank: 3.3 / 5 (4)
There is no free market. Gold is manipulated. Look up fiat currency... No conspiracy, the truth.

So this "crash" is totally a engineered phenomenon.
Regulation is just a discussion point to keep you distracted from the real issue.
axemaster
Dec 10, 2008

Rank: 2.5 / 5 (2)
"Professor Bingham suggests that to learn more and predict financial future, we should look to our past, likening the current crisis to the 'Tulip Mania' in the Netherlands in 1636 where huge prices were paid for futures in tulips, which then turned out to be as worthless as sub-prime mortgages today."

WHAT?!!!! TULIP FUTURES?! HAHAHAHAHA
wesjo
Dec 10, 2008

Rank: 4 / 5 (1)
Regulation or the lack of it are not what got us into the problem. If housing prices were still going up we would not be having this discussion. Since the 1930s housing prices have been going up interrupted by only minor corrections or plateaus. The mantra in the investment community (supported by business schools) was maximize your leverage and get rich. Businesses that were managed conservatively were immediate takeover targets. The collective wisdom of the generation that experienced the downturn in the 30s is lost in that they have either died or retired from active management or investing. It did not take a genius to see that housing was becoming too expensive for the average buyer. The price history experienced by the current generation was just too compelling. Yes it was a mania but unlike prior ones. How can we possibly regulate to prevent a mania when we have no idea what the next one will be?
Velanarris
Dec 11, 2008

Rank: 3 / 5 (3)
There is no free market. Gold is manipulated. Look up fiat currency... No conspiracy, the truth.

So this "crash" is totally a engineered phenomenon.
Regulation is just a discussion point to keep you distracted from the real issue.
There is more truth to this than most will realize.

Currency is not supposed ot last more than 50 or 60 years without a complete overhaul of the system and "balancing of the books". The US started the current currency system during the Nixon era and surprise, here we are facing a potentially huge economic meltdown due to unreal levels of inflation.

Without a rather drastic change to our currency system the US will turn into Italy. Home of the severly undervalued Lyra.

Wheel barrow full of hundreds to buy bread anyone?
theophys
Dec 12, 2008

Rank: 3.5 / 5 (2)
How can we possibly regulate to prevent a mania when we have no idea what the next one will be?


We can't regulate to prevent every kind of mania. What we can do is use the information we got from this ressession and apply it so that this specific kind of thing never happens again. We may well have a fishing boat mania in a decade or two, but if we get the right legislation going now, it won't be another housing mania or credit mania.
morpheus2012
Dec 13, 2008

Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
scientific gibirish of a cluless person this article

for anybody who didnt ge the memo this crisis was
ingeneered by the bankesters behind the federal reserve who run the world, to achive more consolidation, more power more control,

has nothing to do with mathemtics or freemarket

engeered by design just the great dpresion
Liono
Dec 13, 2008

Rank: 4 / 5 (1)
The end result of the recent explosion in securitisation with respect to sub prime/ probable continued escalation of credit card securitisation deterioration, is a result of the misapplication of 1.) quantitative models, 2.) dismal underwriting standards fostered from classic agent-principal dilemmas manifesting throughout the capital markets-public company's, and finally, 3.)the laughable explosion of alternative investment vehicles(hedge funds, private equity), deemed as such by this author as a result of those vehicles commonly employed poor capital allocation policies that are/were highly predictable when taking into consideration the source of experience and intellect that such mangers of those vehicles derived/predicated their ability from.
Liono
Dec 13, 2008

Rank: 2 / 5 (2)
Regulation will neither fix, and most certainty, will not optimize the functional role capital markets do/ and can increasingly impart on creating value for society and thereby, increasing living standards. Specifically, that which i refer to with respect to regulation, is the idea that imposing strict capital controls in the form of capital targets on banks or somehow creating a mechanism for restricting capital allocation polices by asset management entities.
Liono
Dec 13, 2008

Rank: 3 / 5 (1)
Rather, the solution, resides in attacking the source that spreads and exasperates the agent/principal dilemma which is permeating upon (in a negative manner)the corporate governance standards of public company's. This source is mutual funds, which by way of their poor asset management polices, (high turnover-over diversification), and finally, their poorly functioning market (poor or below average performance is not punished) has created a behemoth of an industry (12.5 trillion) that impairs the optimal functionality of the capital markets.
Jayman
Dec 13, 2008

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
It spells the death of the Free Market Economy. The current crisis proves that the market cannot regulate itself due to one innate feature of all humans - greed. The more I read about this crisis, the more I lose confidence in America. The finance industry in the US is one big scam leeching on the world's savings. This should not be allowed to happen and the US should not have access to the world's savings.
Velanarris
Dec 14, 2008

Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
It's very simple.

Name one thing that the government does better than private industry.
GrayMouser
Dec 15, 2008

Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
It's very simple.

Name one thing that the government does better than private industry.


Spend other people's money?
Roach
Dec 16, 2008

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
It's very simple.

Name one thing that the government does better than private industry.


Procrastinate? Bureaocracy? Placate to the general public? Lie to the people? Butt into people business? Pyrric victories? Write technical requirements that no one can meet? Make token gestures?

Of course none of these inspire much confidence in their ability to do anything productive.
Soylent
Apr 07, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
It's very simple.

Name one thing that the government does better than private industry.


Space exploration, law enforcement, war, scientific research in any area that has no immediate commercial application, building public infrastructure, regulating the electrical grid(the self-regulated alternative is the incestous mess that spawned Enron)...
Velanarris
Apr 07, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
Space exploration,

There's no comparison so it wouldn't really be "better" but that's 1 for you.
law enforcement

Again, no basis for comparison, but there's 2 for you.
war
Nope, contractors have been found to be far better at war than the government is.
scientific research in any area that has no immediate commercial application
That's a really long qualifier and I'm going to say no to this one as well. Look at what Dow has come out with alone. That and if I really wanted to get into semantics I could say that it may be federally funded but it's the private institutions that perform the work.
building public infrastructure
The majority of this is contracted out. Otherwise the Army core of engineers or the GSA would have to be 5x the size they currently are.
regulating the electrical grid(the self-regulated alternative is the incestous mess that spawned Enron)...
I can't speak to this one as I don't have enough info. Most electrical grids don't appear to be regulated beyond the transmission tax, b ut as I said, I have ignorance in this one. So that's 2 definites and a maybe.

Out of the many thousands of things the government does there are 3 that we can say are performed better, but that's only because if you're the only one doing something, that automatically makes you the best at it.
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