Financial instruments could be spiked with unfindable risks

December 21, 2009 by Steven Schultz
Financial instruments could be spiked with unfindable risks

Rong Ge, a graduate student in computer science, was part of a team that used intractability theory to study the pricing of financial derivatives. (Photo by Frank Wojciechowski)

(PhysOrg.com) -- In a result that may have implications for financial regulation, researchers from computer science and economics have revealed potentially impenetrable problems with the pricing of financial derivatives. They show that sellers of these investments could purposefully include pieces of bad risk that no buyer could detect even with the most powerful computers.

The research focused on collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs, an investment tool that combines many mortgages with the promise of spreading out and lowering the risk of default. The team examined what would happen if a seller knew that some mortgages were "lemons" and structured a package of CDOs to benefit himself. They found that the manipulation may be impossible for buyers to detect either at time of sale or later when the derivative loses money.

The team consists of Sanjeev Arora, director of Princeton's Center for Computational Intractability, his colleague Boaz Barak, economics professor Markus Brunnermeier, and graduate student Rong Ge.

It is now standard wisdom that a major culprit in the 2008 was use of simplistic mathematical models of risk at financial firms. This paper, released as a working draft Oct. 15, suggests that the problems may go deeper.

"We are cautioning that even if you have the right model it's not easy to price derivatives," Arora said. "Making the models more complicated will not make these effects go away, even for computationally sophisticated."

Arora noted that the problem arises from asymmetric information between buyers and sellers, and goes against conventional wisdom in , which holds that derivatives reduce the negative effects of such unequal information.

"Standard economics emphasizes that securitization can mitigate the cost of asymmetric information," Brunnermeier said. "We stress that certain derivative securities introduce additional complexity and thus a new layer of asymmetric information that can be so severe it overturns the initial advantage."

Brunnermeier noted that the finding came from combining computer science and finance, which has not been done before but has the potential for further insights. “I anticipate that both fields can enrich each other,” he said.

Provided by Princeton University (news : web)

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Bob_B
Dec 21, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Is this different than while riding an elevator, someone (person A) overhearing an "insider" talking on a cell phone about information that Person A can benefit from if He/She acted on the information, i.e. bought stocks.

This is called Insider Trading. This can be very hard to detect, so the Feds throw a very large net to entrap anyone "near."
Blair
Dec 21, 2009

Rank: 4 / 5 (4)
... another sledgehammer science result.

Given the established cyber-casino,
run by the criminals taking over
the regulation of the casino,
being able to make money
to gamble with, out of
NOTHING, but faith
in social habits ...

and,

given derivative bets made with fiat money,
FOR SURE, there are going to be "risks"
that nobody can penetrate enough now.

That article seems like a bunch of jargon,
backed with its sledgehammer modelling,

to demonstrate that derivatives enabled
cyber-casino gambling that nobody can
understand nor predict all the outcomes.

The derivatives were derived from frauds.

Derivatives were frauds built on frauds!!!

Of course, they enable asymmetry between
the people running the cyber-casinos, and
those people who are forced to live inside.

"Combining computer science and finance"
is always going to be more manifestations
of the principle of garbage in, garbage out.
mattytheory
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Can someone please explain to me HOW leveraged assets can be further leveraged, as is the case with CDO's, and, WHY someone would buy such an asset?? Oh I get it, greed... and more greed. I think I read somewhere that greed begets greed but I am probably making that up.

Ok, seriously, someone help!
gwrede
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 4 / 5 (1)
The good thing: this ought to give both investors and law makers something to consider.

The bad thing: heavy-duty mathematicians and computer scientists coming into financing. This will definitely widen the gap between those who can afford to buy better information and better tools, and those who don't.

Sadly, those who don't, are the regular people. And it's their money (their loans, investments) everybody else is playing with.
marjon
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 2 / 5 (2)
Can someone please explain to me HOW leveraged assets can be further leveraged, as is the case with CDO's, and, WHY someone would buy such an asset?? Oh I get it, greed... and more greed. I think I read somewhere that greed begets greed but I am probably making that up.

Ok, seriously, someone help!


Fools and their money are soon parted. Evolution is survival of the fittest, smartest. Bailing out fools will beget more fools.
If it comes to people keeping their money in a mattress, investors who want such money will need to take extraordinary measures to gain and maintain such trust.
The government ignored Madoff for over 10 years. Why trust any regulation to control such individuals?
Velanarris
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
The bad thing: heavy-duty mathematicians and computer scientists coming into financing. This will definitely widen the gap between those who can afford to buy better information and better tools, and those who don't.


I disagree that this is a bad thing. I concede that your reasoning is sound however, bringing heavy duty mathematicians into the fields of finance has reduced and removed overall fraud as it did when the 80's SnL transactions were found to be fraudulent by those same mathematicians.
bobertjmurphy
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
The bad thing: heavy-duty mathematicians and computer scientists coming into financing. This will definitely widen the gap between those who can afford to buy better information and better tools, and those who don't.


They've been there for over 20 years. On Wall Street, they're called "quants".

I started down that road about 1991, and bailed out after a couple of years for other areas of computer science. The folks running the show on the business side were naive and only wanted to hear what they wanted to hear, not the honest truth about what mathematical models could and couldn't do. It was clear to me a disaster or three were looming, and from both an ethical and practical perspective, I didn't want to be involved.
otto1923
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
So every so often there is an unanticipated debacle caused by some clever people exploiting some loophole in the system that nobody else knew was there, aided and abetted by supposed incompetent regulators and watchdogs. So new laws are written to close these loopholes; but at the same time laws are written to enable the creation of new investment vehicles with built-in loopholes that only a clever few can be aware of.

The markets are rigged ladies and gentlemen, by the same System that invented them and which ensures they operate for the Greater Good. Corruption and exploitation are inevitable, which is why markets need to be controlled and manipulated from ABOVE and in total secrecy. Investment losses are a sort of corporate tax we all pay because we have absolutely no choice. They are a essential money pump which siphons a little from millions of pockets into a very Few who know how best to use it.
otto1923
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
bringing heavy duty mathematicians into the fields of finance has reduced and removed overall fraud
As with hacking, it would only make fraud more complex and esoteric and harder to discover, yes? There was a scandal recently- cant find it now- a firm was peddling investments based on an elaborate mathematical formula based on historical index highs and lows. It worked great until the boom ended. Seems the formula only used figures for the previous 6 years or so, and didnt include the prior recession. An obvious and sophomoric scam but it didnt matter because people were making money. Until they lost it all. Regulators have always had a hard time keeping up with the educated scheisters.
marjon
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 4 / 5 (1)
So every so often there is an unanticipated debacle caused by some clever people exploiting some loophole in the system that nobody else knew was there, aided and abetted by supposed incompetent regulators and watchdogs. So new laws are written to close these loopholes; but at the same time laws are written to enable the creation of new investment vehicles with built-in loopholes that only a clever few can be aware of.

The markets are rigged ladies and gentlemen, by the same System that invented them and which ensures they operate for the Greater Good. Corruption and exploitation are inevitable, which is why markets need to be controlled and manipulated from ABOVE and in total secrecy. Investment losses are a sort of corporate tax we all pay because we have absolutely no choice. They are a essential money pump which siphons a little from millions of pockets into a very Few who know how best to use it.

Regulated by those who rigged the game?
fmfbrestel
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
"the finding came from combining computer science and finance, which has not been done before"

Yeah right... no one has used computer science to study finance before.... what kind of ignorant comment is that?
marjon
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
The real power in any market is the customer. If he is not persuaded to buy, noting happens.
How are customers persuaded? If fraud is used, legal action should be taken and everyone should be warned. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
Making 'investments' more complicated will keep wise investors from handing over their money.
What happened with the housing collapse was the US government was guaranteeing mortgages and Wachovia started securitizing mortgages in '97 to satisfy its government obligation to the CRA. https://www.wacho...1872RCRD
When the US government virtually guarantees any mortgage, as they did in the 80s, the rush is on.
Arkaleus
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
Seems like our confusion in money has its root in just a few fallacies:

1) Humans creating money at will can be trusted to never use this ability to their advantage;

2) Allowing some groups of people to create money at will and trade it secretly for profit will INCREASE the equality and liberty of the rest of the world;

3) There's nothing anyone can do about it.
Velanarris
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
Unfortunately the most dangerous of those fallacies is number 3. It's also the one most often repeated by the population.
VeIanarris
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
I should also say that the best way out of the current mess is to adopt some of the methods learnt during my college days. I loved the simplicity that went beyond socialism, the brilliant but unattainable purity. Asthe maste himself said "Capital is money, capital is commodities. By virtue of it being value, it has acquired the occult ability to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays golden eggs."
Caliban
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
For as long as there are sufficient people to affirm and insist that Free Market Capitalism is the Natural Order of the Economy, and is the product of Darwinian evolutionary forces, and therefore a perfectly adapted organism, and beyond being interfered with, then there will ALWAYS be problems like this in both local and global economies. The fact is that they are not perfect, naturally arising environments. They are the constructs of human activity, and susceptible to manipulation.
The question that SHOULD be asked, is: "Where did those HUNDREDS of TRILLIONS of dollars go?"
I sure as hell don't have them. Do any of you guys? I didn't think so. Another question is: "What are you going to do with that money, now that you have it? You couldn't possibly spend it all, especially since you're not gonna buy everyone new shoes!"
And the very best part of all this is that WE- as in TAXPAYERS- are left with this ticking time bomb sitting in our laps. Crisis is not over, people.
Caliban
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
I won't presume to speak for the rest of you- especially since some of you would most certainly disagree- but I have some profound difficulties with the notion of a system wherein those at the top are allowed to just reach in and grab whatever they want whenever they want, with the full force of Government and weight of Law(not to mention about half of "Public Opinion") to assist them- especially if there is any resistance. This is nothing less than thievery, perpetrated by a relative few, and abetted by the very government that most of us elected thinking that it was supposed to prevent the very thing. It is hard for me to accept that people sit around and (sometimes pretend to) scratch their heads and say that they just don't understand how or why this could happen. There is no mystery whatsoever.
@Arkaleus- very succinct. I felt the need to embelish.
marjon
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
I won't presume to speak for the rest of you- especially since some of you would most certainly disagree- but I have some profound difficulties with the notion of a system wherein those at the top are allowed to just reach in and grab whatever they want whenever they want, with the full force of Government and weight of Law(not to mention about half of "Public Opinion") to assist them- especially if there is any resistance. This is nothing less than thievery, perpetrated by a relative few, and abetted by the very government that most of us elected thinking that it was supposed to prevent the very thing. It is hard for me to accept that people sit around and (sometimes pretend to) scratch their heads and say that they just don't understand how or why this could happen. There is no mystery whatsoever.
@Arkaleus- very succinct. I felt the need to embelish.

How can a solution be giving government MORE power? Limited government will put the power back in the consumer's hands.
marjon
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)

The question that SHOULD be asked, is: "Where did those HUNDREDS of TRILLIONS of dollars go?"
I sure as hell don't have them. Do any of you guys? I didn't think so. Another question is: "What are you going to do with that money, now that you have it? You couldn't possibly spend it all, especially since you're not gonna buy everyone new shoes!"
And the very best part of all this is that WE- as in TAXPAYERS- are left with this ticking time bomb sitting in our laps. Crisis is not over, people.

It wasn't money that disappeared, it was debt.
Caliban
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 2 / 5 (3)
No, the debt is still sitting there- for us to pay off.
Here's an example for you. If I bundled 500 million dollars worth of sub-prime mortgages into a "complex derivative" security, do you think I sold it to a "consumer" with out getting any cash in exchange for it?
These, and many other types of similar transactions are what vacuumed all of that available cash out of our- and therefore the rest of the world's- economy. Again I say, the question that you should be asking is: Where did all that money go?"
otto1923
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Anybody wonder why some trolls have to quote entire posts only to ask one pointless question? I suppose its because theyre lazy? Or they need to fatten up their presence in some way?
those at the top are allowed to just reach in and grab whatever they want whenever they want, with the full force of Government and weight of Law
We are given absolutely no choice in the matter. You want to retire broke? Give up your 401k. You ever want to borrow money? Pay interest. Etc.
Caliban
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)


@otto-
Agreed. If you're not in a position-pretty much from the outset- to be able to take advantage of the protections(all for the benefit of those at the top of the pyramid)that are built into the system, then you are basically just a crop to be harvested.
When you hear the phrase "growing wealth" you can interpret it in the literal sense, because unfortunately, you run the very real risk of "growing" it for someone else.

otto1923
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
@Caliban
I just like to think these mechanisms exist for a higher purpose than personal gain. After all, what good is money if there's no food to buy or the Taliban is at your gate? Investment markets were concieved by the ancients. They weren't established until the world was in a state to make them work. Originally the king would loan out the money and he would get blamed for the resulting inflation and collapse. Then someone got the bright idea to give the Jews the job and when economies topped they got a pogrom and the king got his money back. And the Templars- we know what happened to them. Anyways it's all very fishy but very beneficial, and I can assume the Good Guys are the corrupters as well as the corrupted- 2 sides, 1 coin. After all how can 'god' be only good?
Arkaleus
Dec 22, 2009

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
For any adult to consider themselves matriculated in reality they should be able to fearlessly model the power structure of the world. They choose early in life which of those powers to join.

Those who have elected the power of liberty and uprightness know that paper money is the weapon of bloodless global conquest, and it is used against us at home as well as others abroad. They all know the moneyprinters have used this weapon of mass delusion and ensnared us in a diabolically engineered scheme.

When considering the United States, the sightful eye sees the warning of Andrew Jackson emerge from the abominable dreams of our forefathers into living flesh as the Federal Reserve, IMF, and World Bank.

When these power groups succeed in consolidating the available capital of the world, their rule will be absolute - unless something happens that is against the "rules".

Fallacy #3 need not be bloody, Velanarris. Banksters are weak, and no one will die for them.
stealthc
Dec 23, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
We should hang the people that made derivatives a reality for high treason. They are murderers just like saddam and osama are. Putting financial squeeze on people, sometimes extreme enough to starve people to death. These people are bigger murderers than even stalin was.
VeIanarris
Dec 23, 2009

Rank: 2.2 / 5 (6)
You have to say that capitalism, the creation of wealth from 'thin air' has plunged us into a sea of debt. never before has so much, of nothing, been owed to so few by so many.
As Karl Marx said "Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation."
marjon
Dec 23, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
You have to say that capitalism, the creation of wealth from 'thin air' has plunged us into a sea of debt. never before has so much, of nothing, been owed to so few by so many.
As Karl Marx said "Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation."

No, I don't have to say that. What I can say is government interference in markets has consequences. What I can say is socialism destroys wealth.
marjon
Dec 23, 2009

Rank: 2 / 5 (2)
Where did the money go? Maybe a better question is where did it come from? With fractional reserve banking, the money was created out of thin air or, in other terms, what real money there was was inflated. http://www.lewroc...frb.html That could be seen in the price of houses a few year ago in stocks in the 90s, tulips in Hollend a few hundred years ago...

otto1923
Dec 23, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
You have to say that capitalism, the creation of wealth from 'thin air' has plunged us into a sea of debt. never before has so much, of nothing, been owed to so few by so many.
As Karl Marx said "Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation."

No, I don't have to say that. What I can say is government interference in markets has consequences. What I can say is socialism destroys wealth.

otto1923
Dec 23, 2009

Rank: 3.7 / 5 (3)
What? No, I'm just a lazy dumbass who craves attention. I even think people are talking to me when they're not-
ForFreeMinds
Dec 24, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
What's the point of applying mathematical models to derivatives if "a seller knew that some mortgages were 'lemons' and structured a package of CDOs to benefit himself"? Why is it that there isn't an incentive for the rating agencies to investigate the soundness of underlying mortgages when rating the CDOs? An account would at least investigate a sample. Seems obvious the implicit guarantees offered by the US Govt. removes the need.

What's the "standard wisdom"? That "a major culprit in the 2008 financial meltdown was use of simplistic mathematical models of risk", or perhaps beware of politicians and the PhDs who receive govt. blaming others for their immoral activity.
marjon
Dec 24, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
What's the point of applying mathematical models to derivatives if "a seller knew that some mortgages were 'lemons' and structured a package of CDOs to benefit himself"? Why is it that there isn't an incentive for the rating agencies to investigate the soundness of underlying mortgages when rating the CDOs? An account would at least investigate a sample. Seems obvious the implicit guarantees offered by the US Govt. removes the need.

What's the "standard wisdom"? That "a major culprit in the 2008 financial meltdown was use of simplistic mathematical models of risk", or perhaps beware of politicians and the PhDs who receive govt. blaming others for their immoral activity.

When the US gov't was guaranteeing mortgages through Freddie and Fannie, who was conducting the immoral activity?
otto1923
Dec 24, 2009

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
What's the point of applying mathematical models to derivatives if "a seller knew that some mortgages were 'lemons' and structured a package of CDOs to benefit himself"? Why is it that there isn't an incentive for the rating agencies to investigate the soundness of underlying mortgages when rating the CDOs? An account would at least investigate a sample. Seems obvious the implicit guarantees offered by the US Govt. removes the need.

What's the "standard wisdom"? That "a major culprit in the 2008 financial meltdown was use of simplistic mathematical models of risk", or perhaps beware of politicians and the PhDs who receive govt. blaming others for their immoral activity.

When the US gov't was guaranteeing mortgages through Freddie and Fannie, who was conducting the immoral activity?

Husky
Dec 26, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
if you wrap a turd in enough paper nobody will smell it, thats why we should limit derivatives in the first place
marjon
Dec 26, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
if you wrap a turd in enough paper nobody will smell it, thats why we should limit derivatives in the first place

Then this is fraud and sellers should be prosecuted.
otto1923
Dec 26, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
if you wrap a turd in enough paper nobody will smell it, thats why we should limit derivatives in the first place

Then this is fraud and sellers should be prosecuted.

marjon
Dec 26, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
if you wrap a turd in enough paper nobody will smell it, thats why we should limit derivatives in the first place

Then this is fraud and sellers should be prosecuted.


Are you trying to make a comment?
GrayMouser
Dec 27, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
As Karl Marx said "Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation."

Marx was quoting someone else, if not an earlier Greek writer then Alexander Tyler in 1787:
THE FALL OF THE ATHENIAN REPUBLIC... "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
GrayMouser
Dec 27, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
To complete the line of thought, Marx could not understand two things:
1) that the ruling class wants to remain the ruling class and will twist the system to keep their children in the ruling class.
2) if everybody is paid the exact same thing regardless of the work performed there is no reason to excel, because there is no rewards.

All of the so called Communist countries in the 20th century were in fact dictatorships with superficial Marxist guise. That's one of the reasons the USSR was referred to as Marxist-Leninism instead of Marxist.
otto1923
Dec 27, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
@greymouser
Tyler got it from Platos Republic:
'Democracy passes into despotism.'
562-A
-I like to look at communism the reality as opposed to the theory, as martial law imposed on a people while the act of destroying their obsolete cultures was completed. Which usually entailed killing the carriers of those cultures in droves.
CaptBarbados
Dec 27, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
The American economy represents 1/3 of the World's GDP. Wall Street peed on a LOT of boots besides the American taxpayer.

I'd suggest a review of deregulating the ability to combine banking services, as has been done this past two decades.

That has failed.
marjon
Dec 27, 2009

Rank: not rated yet
The reason the USA attempted to be a constitutional republic was to avoid people stealing from the treasury.
After all the earmarks and bribes in the latest health care bill, that has failed miserably.
It would be wise to repeal the 17th amendment and enforce the 9th and 10th amendments.
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