Physicist proposes method to teleport energy

more progress/theory of quantum information style transfer. Always an entertaining read(IMO)

Now what happens when you have a cloud quantum computing array, and quantum data & energy transfer functioning, ahh the future.

The measurement on the first particle injects quantum energy into the two-particle system, which is possible because there are always quantum fluctuations in the energy of any particle. This energy can then be immediately extracted at the second particle by making a second carefully chosen measurement on that particle. Throughout the process, the energy of the overall system remains the same.

So... could you put a vehicle in space with a very compact energy system that is actually being powered by a plant on earth or the moon???
Now if we can prove or dissprove reactionless drives--- I am rooting for the EmDrive, but who knows if it actually works. Unfortunately a peer review means someone else has to actually believe or disbelieve in it enough to prove it works by duplicating it or by thoroughly proving it doesn't work.

"...these new ideas about entanglement and information could have far-reaching implications: “There is a growing sense that the properties of the universe are best described not by the laws that govern matter but by the laws that govern information..."

For me this was the most interesting statement.

Cheers

'..."...these new ideas about entanglement and information could have far-reaching implications: ...There is a growing sense that the properties of the universe are best described not by the laws that govern matter but by the laws that govern information...

________________________________________

For me this was the most interesting statement.

So... could you put a vehicle in space with a very compact energy system that is actually being powered by a plant on earth or the moon???
Now if we can prove or dissprove reactionless drives--- I am rooting for the EmDrive, but who knows if it actually works. Unfortunately a peer review means someone else has to actually believe or disbelieve in it enough to prove it works by duplicating it or by thoroughly proving it doesn't work.

...so, for example...

...they might be able to make anti-matter on earth and teleport it to a space craft, then react it there to provide thrust, thus the fuel never needs to push it's own mass. Interesting...essentially an "infinite range" off-board stellar engine...

If plausible, this would be as close to an ideal space engine as anyone could possibly propose.

There is a growing sense that the properties of the universe are best described not by the laws that govern matter but by the laws that govern information.

I dislike the symantics of using "information" instead of other, more descriptive terms. While it's a very meaningful concept, it may lead the casual observer to think physical laws are NOT forms of information

I dislike the symantics of using "information" instead of other, more descriptive terms. While it's a very meaningful concept, it may lead the casual observer to think physical laws are NOT forms of information

In a certain sense, I think all physical properties and all laws can be classified as "information".

This should be obvious simply by imagining an arbitrarily accurate and precise computer simulation. If the simulation was "perfect" then all matter, energy, space, time and laws in the simulation would be "information".

I find it a ridiculous notion that we would be able to maintain entanglement to a degree that would make this useful. How would you prevent decoherence at a level that would make this a meaningful thing to attempt?

Yes, everything meaningul is "information". It's the $10 version of the word "stuff". This stuff made stuff that lead me to the conclusion that stuff has stuff.

PMende, good point. While information may be usefully transfered via entanglement, it would be a modern miracle if we could make use of that information in a meaningful way

This sounds very fishy... So they are saying that they can take two entangled particles, and then seperate them and give them inputs unrelated to the entanglement itself? I'm taking quantum physics right now in college, and I frankly don't see how that is remotely possible. Not to mention the fact that it sounds as though it would violate conservation of momentum and energy.

But 'information' itself is limited by the speed of light.

Entanglement as far as I know has so far only worked of a very small distance (in a lab). I really do find this either hard to believe or hard to understand.

Beware of computational literalisms using quantum computers and if then statements. If 1 = 1 Joule (with a literal example of a Joule given to the quantum computer) then if you ask what 10 to the 10th power equals it could have grave consequences.

Since, as I understand it, you can have multiple entangled particles, could you inject energy in a single quantum power replicator source and remove energy out of multiple destinations? In other words, could you have a quantum power plant with a quantum power source and also have thousands of locations (homes for example) all getting "cloned power" from a SINGLE source? Sounds like free energy or cloned energy. Of course this would take several hundred trillion entangled particles on both sided to even get a blip of energy. But I can imagine a golf ball shaped mass of entangled particles optimized to transfer energy from a source that could easily power a large house. Pardon me if this is stupid, I'm a casual reader of science and physics with an overactive imagination. This would also work on cars, trucks, planes, ships, spaceships, the moon, anywhere in the universe. But if you don't get the bill paid consider yourself DE-TANGLED.

There is a growing sense that the properties of the universe are best described not by the laws that govern matter but by the laws that govern information.

In other words, the universe is a giant computer simulation. Neo, the Matrix has you.

Now, how do I hack the software to enable God Mode?

Ohhh i see.
1. Let us make some power plants on space ( or anywhere ).
2. Define/Trace Target.
3. Release energy.

My confusion:

Can it work as a weapon?

My conclusion:

Yes.

Question?

Are we prepared to be served with such technology?

Raygunner:

They aren't saying you could "clone" energy, so no, you wouldn't be able to put say, 1000 watts of energy in and get millions out, no way.

however, as I understand it, you could put 1000 in and get 1000 out at any entangled destination...

One of the biggest applications I can think of remains an off-board engine for space craft and possibly other vehicles.

Momentum actually is conserved, you just don't "see" it on ordinary scales because the earth is so big. It's a lot easier to move a single particle worth of mass or energy than to move the earth.

"There is a growing sense that the properties of the universe are best described not by the laws that govern matter but by the laws that govern information..."
True, and information can travel much faster than light, indeed quantum information travels instantaneously at infinite speed to produce synchronicity.

@Quantum_Conundrum,

Momentum actually is conserved...

Is it really? Suppose the sending reference frame is rapidly spinning (or is just located on the surface of a spinning planet...) Any energy it sends, will have sapped some of that angular momentum. The receiving frame is not spinning. Where did the extra angular momentum go?

Are we prepared to be served with such technology?

Answer: sure why not?

Be prepared for a quantum leap paradigm shift akin to the instantaneous onset of the nuclear age. Of course society will have to adjust (with much wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments and pulling of hair) No matter- it is Progress whose Time has Come! Wheres your backbone man?

however, as I understand it, you could put 1000 in and get 1000 out at any entangled destination...

Unless the energy comes from the limitless reservoir of the Vacuum-

"There is a growing sense that the properties of the universe are best described not by the laws that govern matter but by the laws that govern information..."
True, and information can travel much faster than light, indeed quantum information travels instantaneously at infinite speed to produce synchronicity.

Information only travels with infinite speed if you reject locality. I'm not sure why you would not choose to reject realism over locality, since it seems more likely that realism is the notion most likely to be incorrect.

@Quantum_Conundrum,

Is it really? Suppose the sending reference frame is rapidly spinning (or is just located on the surface of a spinning planet...) Any energy it sends, will have sapped some of that angular momentum. The receiving frame is not spinning. Where did the extra angular momentum go?

My guess is that it would "somehow" be converted into linear momentum, because the instantaneous angular momentum of a particle on the surface of the earth is the same as a tangent vector (I think).

Therefore, if the engine is designed in a clever enough fashion, you would actually be able to make further use of this, transfering the angular momentum directly to the ship as linear momentum...presumably at any distance...

That is, you design the teleporter so that the energy/particle always comes in from such an angle as to strike a surface on the ship from the rear, thereby providing thrust by transfering some of it's angular momentum to the ship along it's vector...

The arxiv paper to which the article links indicates that they did not take into account special relativity. Furthermore, the transfer of energy requires a signal to be sent between the two locations in order to tell the receivers what to measure. Therefore, it would be unwise to attempt to use the results of this theoretical exercise to attempt to move anything at an appreciable fraction of c.

The main conclusion of the paper is that (at least in classical quantum mechanics) there is a relationship between the amount of energy that can be extracted from a quantum system and the amount of entanglement of the system. (the entanglement of the system was judged by computing its entropy, so the a priori the results agree with the second law of thermodynamics (and, of course, the first as well)) The paper is unclear as to the necessity of contact between the entangled particles (if they are in contact, energy transfer will happen by diffusion eventually (this is mentioned in the paper)

@Quantum_Conundrum,

My guess is that it would "somehow" be converted into linear momentum...

Sorry, no dice. Laws of physics state rather unequivocally that angular momentum must be a conserved quantity. If you manage to violate this conservation law, you will be able to construct a perpetual motion machine.

@Quantum_Conundrum,

Sorry, no dice. Laws of physics state rather unequivocally that angular momentum must be a conserved quantity. If you manage to violate this conservation law, you will be able to construct a perpetual motion machine.

How?

The total momentum remains the same.

Also, everything is a "perpetual motion machine".

Perpetual motion is actually normal, and is only disrupted by gravitation and other forces. (See the definition of Inertia for proof of this.)

We also have experimental data proving that perpetual motion is real, which are the various man-made deep space probes that have been created...they keep going and going and going, and will do so basicly forever.

We also know antimatter reacts with matter for 100% mass to energy conversion. So there could be no angular momentum conservation in that case either...

Previously, physicists have demonstrated how to teleport the quantum states of several different entities, including photons, atoms, and ions.

Now... if you could entangle black holes, would the stuff you pour into one come spewing out of the other one? And would this be a wormhole? Or at least a white hole?

@Quantum_Conundrum,

The total momentum remains the same.

Irrelevant. Rotation is fundamentally not the same thing as linear motion. Rather, you can think of it as a net effect of many finely-synchronized linear motions. If you disturb the net balance, you introduce net movement into the universe; that would allow you to perform work, thereby adding net energy into the universe.

Perpetual motion is actually normal, and is only disrupted by gravitation and other forces. (See the definition of Inertia for proof of this.)

Confused, I see. Inertial motion is not the same thing as a perpetual motion MACHINE. The definition of a MACHINE, is that it carries out WORK. The concept of "work" has a rather precise physical definition, as well.

At any rate, see here for more:

http://en.wikiped...momentum

This business with the string of ions oscillating sounds like a high-tech extension cord. So the energy is not technically passing between the ions but it still requires things in between the two points to work, right? I suppose that this may just be a proof of concept and it might be possible to send energy without intervening material but with the need to establish entanglement and the small amount of energy passed and the fact that it sounds like a very fragile system... well, I'm not surprised that those involved are unable/unwilling to speculate on possible applications of this - or rather, I *am* surprised as it demonstrates a refreshing lack of hype.

As for sending energy to spaceships rather than them carrying it, this may not be the discovery we're looking for. Lasers will have to do for the time being.

But it sounds like a good means of advancing our understanding of physics.

*smiles*

Imagine having two "golf ball" sized entangled masses. Place one in the core of a defueled nuclear reactor that uses water or sodium as the working fluid. The second you very carefully place in orbit around the sun, say somewhere inside the orbit of mercury. As the one in orbit heats the second one in the reactor core heats as well to a nice working temp. I would think that the one in the reactor core would keep the first from vaporizing by releasing enough energy into the working fluid. Or am I understanding this entirely wrong?

Pink_Elephant:

Macroscopic rotation IS the same thing as linear motion. Have you ever played billiards or any "ball" sport?

Surely you know that a que can transform linear momentum into angular momentum(rotation) simply by striking the ball at a glancing blow.

Nobody calls this a violation of conservation, so why should you be alarmed by the reverse?

Surely you know that a que can transform linear momentum into angular momentum(rotation) simply by striking the ball at a glancing blow.

Once again: angular momentum cannot be "transformed" into anything. Angular momentum in the universe is conserved. It's a hard mathematical fact (i.e. a proven theorem), stemming from spatial isotropy and basic energy conservation.

In your particular example, the angular momentum imparted upon the ball, is precisely balanced out by opposite angular momentum imparted to the cue, the player holding the cue, and so on.

For example, imagine the cue and the ball floating in space, unsupported by anything. The queue is launched at the ball, strikes it off-center. The ball spins in a given direction: the cue WILL spin around its own center of gravity in the exactly opposite direction. Net added rotation in the system: zero.

So it is for all imaginable experiments. Angular momentum MUST be conserved.

Pink_Elephant:

Macroscopic rotation IS the same thing as linear motion. Have you ever played billiards or any "ball" sport?

Surely you know that a que can transform linear momentum into angular momentum(rotation) simply by striking the ball at a glancing blow.

Consider a NON-elastic (!) interaction. Conservation of linear momentum will be insufficient to describe this interaction. That is to say, conservation of linear momentum is insufficient to describe very nearly every single real life interaction.

For example: you would never be able to explain the fact that the Moon is moving away from the Earth due to the Moon dragging water across the Earth's surface with conservation of linear momentum. And I will laugh at you if you try.

We lack the mathematics to fathom quantum entanglement on a macro scale- that is with more particles than can be accounted for at one time, given that the probability of any statistically significant amount of them all attaining the same energy state, or even a higher than average energy state is seemingly impossible. Im sure is can happen though, and this would prove it.
It would also bring into question how we might be able to calculate and test for quantum entanglement in macro scale systems. If it can be conceptualized, then we might some day validate some very interesting statistical data relating to "supratatural" studies. btw, the word means natural but yet unexplained.

Wow, practical applications as well as theophilosophical implications. Firstly, if our computer systems can be made to function non-locally, as in employing entanglement to communicate signals, then we've basically got no upper limit on speed. The evolution of the AI doesn't appear to be far away.
On a more optimistic note, if non-locality is validated, it shows us there are most aspects to our physical reality than our 'human' mind can grasp. In such a situation, it only makes sense that we now, more than ever, need to be evolving and expanding our collective consciousness. Nirvana, or the state of the attainment of the true self, is not only a necessity, it's a must.

So , if entaglement can survive it , you just have to position some entagled particle-clouds going towar the sun , and have the other pairs aboard some space probes to get a 2-5 g from here to the end of the voyage , and then decelerate /maneuver at destination , carriying no fuel

If it is too good to be true , then , surely it isn't.

Granting that I've never taking a class concerned directly with quantum phenomena and whatnot (well, I've taken a thermodynamics class, and we covered some quantum effects, but they weren't the stars of the show, so to speak) and don't really know what I'm talking about, how is this even possible? I thought that it wasn't possible for entanglement to convey information of any kind, since that would involve carrying information at faster than the speed of light. If my understanding is correct, and usable energy counts as information...Well, again, how could this be possible? Would anyone mind explaining this to me?

My suspicion is the energy put into the entangled pair is set at their creation, and actions on one end makes available energy at the other end. The total energy is fixed and to introduce "new" energy into the system the two "halves" would have to be brought back together. It would not work as a kind of conduit through which energy could be poured.

Can someone answer a question for me?

Is this transfer of energy instantaneous? Faster than light?

Maybe. Heres the article:
http://www.scribd...ro-Hotta
-Can anybody decipher this?

I think everyone's getting a bit excited. Just to clarify some things to those talking about spaceships and things; this quantum teleportation is limited by lightspeed. Quantum teleportation involves sending information about entangled particles (maximum light speed) to another location so that that information can be used to recreate the quantum state of the object to be teleported in another loaction.

In other words, teleportation involves an instantaneous and a lightspeed component. Yes the entanglement transfers 'something' instantaneously, but the actual information itself is limited by lightspeed. So the energy being sent to the spaceship would presumably be limited in the same way.

lightspeed would be good enough for most purposes, Ion propulsion with high ISP and remote nuclear plants to provide the raw muscle would go a long way

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I'm not particularly religious, and dismissed this formula from "St John" as mystical gobbledygook until I thought of "the Word" as a synonym for "information" while reading "The User Illusion" by Tor Norretranders. Maybe those old Gnostic dudes did know a thing or two ... somehow.

Sancho:

The apostle John was not a gnostic. He actively opposed gnosticism.

====

Husky:

Precisely. The light speed limitation is irrelevant to my prior posts on the topic. If you can teleport a particle, then you can teleport an anti-matter atom and a matter atom, and collide them.

Even with any possible problems regarding agular momentum, that could be corrected through the usage of additional engines, since you could just teleport other particles with reverse rotation to compensate, or fire a maneuvering thruster/ion drive to compensate.

If you can "teleport" a particle, then it should be possible to have all of the benefits of an off-board engine, and none of it's drawbacks (range, etc.)

If you can "teleport" a particle, then it should be possible to have all of the benefits of an off-board engine, and none of it's drawbacks (range, etc.)

But this kind of teleportation (in fact all teleportation that I know of in quantum mechanics) requires you to already have a copy of the system that is sending the energy (this is inherent in entanglement). So, even if you could teleport an atom of anti-hydrogen and an(several) atom(s) of hydrogen, you would still have to carry around two(many) atoms worth of mass-energy in some form (or a very low entropy system of almost exactly the same energy (entangled of course) and exploit the technique mentioned in the paper).

Thats why i am a fan of ion engines, very efficient with propellent, especially if you can excite the spin states of remotely, either from the propellant, or remotely induce current in the electromagnetic nozzle that expels the ions

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I'm not particularly religious, and dismissed this formula from "St John" as mystical gobbledygook until I thought of "the Word" as a synonym for "information" while reading "The User Illusion" by Tor Norretranders. Maybe those old Gnostic dudes did know a thing or two ... somehow.

Check out a book called "the science of God" its pretty interesting, and doesn't attempt to validate the bible, but draws some fascinating lines between the creation myth from the original Hebrew Talmud and the science of the big bang.

And in regards to the idea of sending energy to a spaceship: To heck with nuclear power plants, theres an enormous star in the middle of our solar system! You can see it right now if you go outside and look up. we could send up some kind of power collection unit. OR, we could always just tap into the vacuum, but thats a news article we wont see for a while.

star in the middle of our solar system! You can see it right now if you go outside and look up. we could send up some kind of power collection unit. OR, we could always just tap into the vacuum

people already posted those ideas dude. Try to keep up.

Oh, sry.

Truth be told, I really cant imagine how this would work on a large scale.

...they might be able to make anti-matter on earth and teleport it to a space craft, then react it there to provide thrust, thus the fuel never needs to push it's own mass. Interesting...essentially an "infinite range" off-board stellar engine...

If plausible, this would be as close to an ideal space engine as anyone could possibly propose.

They are talking about sending energy not matter, anti-matter is particles.

Last time I read about entanglement, it was still unproven that the conditions that are read in one particle are transferred to the other entangled particle and don't already exist there. If they already exist then transfer of energy will be impossible because there is no long distance magical connection. While I would welcome some magic in the world I still find it hard to believe that there is some magical connection between entangled particles no matter how far apart they are.

Once again: angular momentum cannot be "transformed" into anything. Angular momentum in the universe is conserved.

You're assuming that angular momentum and linear momentum are different things.

Linear momentum is all momentum. Angular momentum is linear momentum acted upon by an external force, regardless of whether that force is gravity, the strong or weak nuclear forces, electromagnetic force, etc.
http://en.wikiped...momentum

Quantum Conundrum, I stand corrected. But I am not aware of anyplace in the Gospels where Gnosticism is condemned. Please enlighten me as to your source (surely not Irenaeus et al.) In terms of form and content, Revelations could easily have been written by a gnostic or someone informed about it.

QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT[QE]is not, as some believe it to be, the transfer of "information" at greater than the speed of light, at absolute velocity, or any velocity. QE is what some call "worm hole in space" what Albert Einstien called "The folding of the fabric of time and space". It is the "Oneness of All Things". Take a sheet of paper. It is a two dimensional surface. Draw a point A and a point B. The distance between point A and point B is about three inches. Point A and point B are separated by space and it takes time to travel the three inches between them. But that is only because they exist in two dimensional space. If we introduce a third dimension we are then able to fold the paper in that third dimension. In folding the paper we join point A to point B. Then the separation between point A and point B is zero. No separation. Interestingly we all experience this QE in our subconsciousness which is, relative to our mundain daytime consciousness, a higher dimensional domain.

Continuation : So what the scientist are trying to accomplish in their laboratory [quantum entanglement] is already working in nature. Thus it is without a shadow of doubt possible to do what they are working to accomplish. A QE computer internet is highly likely to replace our present telephone networking soon. How soon? Perhaps it is already operational in some military circles? Submarines? Space? As regard to possible teleportation phenomenon I think that it to is a QE based technology that could be possible. All we can do is to try it and see what we create using it. I did hear that the Naval Research Laboratory in Maryland USA confirmed scientifically that teleportation is a real phenomenon. At that stage 1980's they were at a loss as to explaining it but they did state that it is a real manifestation in nature.

I'm not sure why you would not choose to reject realism over locality, since it seems more likely that realism is the notion most likely to be incorrect.

Wow, negative and double negative logic inversions. One thing I learned as a software developer is that if you normalise your statements by removing as many inversions as possible, the result is easier to read.

or in negativespeak

One thing I didnt learn as a software developer is that if you dont normalise your statements by removing as many inversions as possible, the result isn't harder to read.

To the bloke talking about ships that don't have to carry fuel: with teleportation, you need a mass to copy the quantum state of the orignal to. So you still need to carry all the mass of the fuel with you, unfortunately.

You say: "...no way". I say: The things one man Dreams, Others will build it. May not be the exact way we imagine it, but someone will build it to work in the correct way. And you know who did it already, don't you?

Raygunner:

They aren't saying you could "clone" energy, so no, you wouldn't be able to put say, 1000 watts of energy in and get millions out, no way.

however, as I understand it, you could put 1000 in and get 1000 out at any entangled destination...

One of the biggest applications I can think of remains an off-board engine for space craft and possibly other vehicles.

Momentum actually is conserved, you just don't "see" it on ordinary scales because the earth is so big. It's a lot easier to move a single particle worth of mass or energy than to move the earth.

I read somewhere that the way the quantum world ends up working is much the way thoughts work... in fact since it is generalized in terms of information rather than particles or even waves the quantum world is really the like looking at a thought -- it can't really exist until you examine it and if you know exactly where it is then you can know nothing else about it -- and if you know exactly where its going you can't know where it is currently...

Its true there is a lightspeed part to this transfer of information -- you have to know how to decode it as it were ... and that information is can only be sent at the speed of light right -- it like you telling someone to turn it left , then left then right to get the info out of the particle ---- but my question is what if you had predefined rules about what to do and when that worked on both sides -- so sync and to send --- the need for better atomic clocks becomes the key -- at least in my little world.

@nuge

reactionless drives if they exist or could even possibly exist would not need a fuel at all -- they simply need energy -- we hope

wiki EmDrive

@nuge

reactionless drives if they exist or could even possibly exist would not need a fuel at all -- they simply need energy -- we hope

wiki EmDrive

He's not talking about reactionless drives, an earlier commenter posted about how it would be cool to teleport fuel to a ship and therfore wouldn't have to carry the fuel with it, but teleport via quantum requires an atom to already be there so it's not actual mass that's teleported so teleporting fuel to a ship doesn't work.

However, I have indeed heard of the EmDrive. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if such a thing were possible, but I am HIGHLY sceptical that it works. It violates conservation of momentum.

It violates conservation of momentum.

Conservation of momentum only occurs in a closed system. There is outside force present here, which is how the EM Drive works.

There is no violation at play.

Reationless drives could work with solar sails and magnetic fields...

I envision a reactionless drive that uses a magnetic field as a solar sail, under the assumption that the magnetic field that protects the earth from solar rays would also have a force imparted apon it. If one created a huge magnetic field around a spaceship they could use that as a sail to generate thrust from the sun. The same thing would work for galactic rays once past the heliopause. Apparently the sun protects the solar system from damaging galactic rays via it's own magnetic field along with it's solar rays blasting away the galactic rays. One might sail the galaxy by riding on these rays with a magnetic sail. Of course once out of the galaxy's reach there might not be enough consistent rays to travel much further but that's a long ways away :)

Recent data has shown that with current technology an em shield would be sufficent to protect astronauts from solar radiation
I hereby dub this system "EM Sail"

I said "reactionless" I meant "lacking reaction mass".

I hereby dub this system "EM Sail"

I'm afraid you're a bit late to the party:

http://en.wikiped...tic_sail

Kudos for coming up with the concept independently, though.

wow nice, I particularly like the part "In theory, it is possible for a magnetic sail to launch directly from the surface of a planet near one of its magnetic poles" Although it seems about as probable as a society attaining "type 2 civilization". All these new discoveries about how the solar wind interacts with the surrounding space is very interesting as well, leading me to hope that sails of some sort are the wave of the future for deep space exploration.

this conversation here has been an interesting read, keep it up.

about that reactionless drive, as presented here, that is a fine idea. in fact, we don't need to go making them as glorious and fancy enough to search the stars right off, we could scale back a little cause i could use one on my car right now....

could you teleport momentum? I should think that may be even more helpful for the so-called 'space drive'