Professor: We have a 'moral obligation' to seed universe with life

Better if we go ourselves, of course, but I agree with his basic idea. I just wonder if we're not the result of someone else's panspermia project?

An evolutionary obligation, perhaps; I'm not sure if it could be considered a moral one (although I happen to agree with professor Mautner). However, I think that a LOT of care would need to go into making absolutely sure that the planets we're seeding don't already have life; I'm all for ensuring that Earth life doesn't die out with the death of the planet, but xenocide is something that we really ought to avoid. That said, though, if something like this is ultimately one of the effects of humanity having existed...well, that, at least, is a legacy that we could be proud of.

Smells like next generation "Manifest Destiny" to me.

It's a bit early for this. For all we know our Galaxy could be full of life..

I can really see people wanting to spend $1b on something that has no direct use to us.
There are too many other important things at present, like saving ourselves first.

Preparing currently azoic planets for a biosphere will require concepts like Von Neumann machines, nanotech and other technologies to mature before we can do planet-scale engineering...

Some might say this is akin to viruses..

do we need to infect more worlds? Cold sterility is best!

We have a lot to do before we are ready to seed life across the universe. There are three major scientific revolutions which are needed:

1. Molecular biology - already in progress but we've barely began. Eventually it will transform ourselves in ways as yet unimaginable. One obvious goal is extension of human life which should make space travel more feasible.

2. Molecular engineering - by which I mean design and manufacture of products with atomic precision. It will transform engineering giving us access to much better materials.

3. Quantum gravity/TOE - we need a better understanding of fundamental physics to know what is ultimately possible. This should lead to better space engines and many insights into the future evolution of our Universe. It should also tell us whether eventual heat death is unavoidable.

Another revolution would also greatly facilitate our progress - a better form of political government, one ensuring competence of leaders and lack of corruption.

we haven't even conquered the depths of our seas and already we want to be the masters of the universe! this is ludicrous!

Careful- moj85 is a Berserker-
Weve most likely already seeded mars with probes contaminated with microbes- by accident or design?

But for all we know humanity might be the only sentient species in the entire universe. And we do know that we are at present at the mercy of a dangerous and unknown neighborhood. Best to spread ourselves around the inner system in self-sustaining colonies as quickly as possible, and wherever possible. Luckily for us Others have already reached this conclusion and are already at work on it on a planetwide scale. Because of AGW and the constant threat of war we will soon have all the tech we need to comfortably colonize mars and the Lagrange points. Energy, materials, genetics, robotics.

@superhuman
We already have the best forms of govt to produce the things on your list, and they are being produced. Competition and crisis are what drive innovation for most any species. For these conditions you need worthy and desperate opponents, and we are not short of those. But for humans, for Progress to proceed in the proper Direction it must all be Controlled- by Design- and it Is. The proof is in the results, and in the contemplation of any alternative to what we've seen-

I think the good professor needs a basic lecture in evolution.

Procreation in a species is not the same as having a 'purpose'. Purpose is target driven whereas procreation is simply 'keeping the species going'. Procreation did not become a drive because we have a goal but because those that follow the alternative strategy soon cease to be around. Evolution is selection, not 'drive'.

I'm also not too sure about where 'morals' come into play here. Is it morally OK to seed places with life that will preclude that place to throw up life on its own (maybe in radically different and interesting ways)?

First of all, Mautner explains that we can minimize these chances by targeting very primitive locations where life could not have evolved yet.

Oh, so we are suddenly experts on where life _can_ have evolved? That's news to me.

This guy is nuts.

Whoa! Stop right there. Michael Mautner is being very naive. Given the fundamental nature of reality, and given that the conditions which can support life as we know it exists, and they will eventually around probably most stars in the course of their lifetimes, the progenesis and subsequent evolution of life is the rule rather than the exception. Professor Mautner is giving himself away, as a closet creationist who thinks that Planet Earth is special and that it is paramount for humans to perpetuate the concept of God by playing Him. The Universe is anthropocentric in nature. As a scientist, he should understand that. Reality already beat him to it. The only permissible way to bring life to other worlds is by visiting them.

There was recently an article on here about how it may not be a good idea to 'radio ET' and announce our presence. Wouldn't this potentially be sending them a taste test/sample platter?

progenesis and subsequent evolution of life is the rule rather than the exception... who thinks that Planet Earth is special and that it is paramount for humans to perpetuate.... The Universe is anthropocentric in nature

MIGHT be the rule. MIGHT be special. MIGHT be anthropocentric. We dont know. We have no direct evidence. We're too important to leave anything up to chance. People who believe these things do not also have to believe in god.

Maybe that's how distant civilizations wage war: Dueling panspermia projects.

Go DNA, go DNA!

We're too important to leave anything up to chance.

Are we? Only by our own value system.

I don't think it's a particularly unbiased way of making a choice (moral or not) if you base the choice of your value on your own set of values.

The man is absolutely right, on condition that life isn't already ubiquitous. If it is we have a moral obligation NOT to spread our DNA. The last thing we need to be is a galactic invasive species, we should learn from our mistakes but as a species we don't and I doubt we ever will.

Agree with Skeptic Heretic. Obligation to whom or what ? It's unnecessary, dangerous, counterproductive and futile to readmit some higher authority through the backdoor hoping that we won't notice. Do what thou wilt is the only "moral obligation" we have. Now let's talk about the possible merits of if and how to actually do it.

A moral obligation?!? WTF?! Yeah right, let's pollute the universe with our kind of life!

Interplanetary money shot.

We have an inflated opinion of ourselves!

That's my opinion,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA PI for Apollo

Funny version of morality. Neither humans nor life have priority in the universe. Let's just let things go by themselves, it's worked pretty well so far.

We have the moral obligation to ensure that our species does not die out, through ignorance or inaction. We owe this to our OFFSPRING, and they to theirs; it is what we are designed to do. This includes preserving life in as many forms as we can. To do this we must spread it, and ourselves, around. Human-haters and the chronically depressed need not reply.

this is after all the basic meaning and purpose of life... it may even be how life got started here.

What is all his religious babbeling? 'Purpose','meaninG'. Humans are so ful of themselves.

We are a species. Like any other species we will live and we will go extinct at some point. So what? There is no 'moral imperative' to do anything. We might _wish_ to spread but we shouldn't sugarcoat such a selfish wish by claiming it is moral or 'our destiny'.

We have the moral obligation to ensure that our species does not die out, through ignorance or inaction. We owe this to our OFFSPRING,

Ever used a condom? Yes? Then you don't practice what you preach.

Truth is any talk of morals or morality immediately pushes the discussion into subjective experience and makes it an illogical statement.

Morals are a human construct, there is no moral imperative to do anything aside from what an individual perceives as a net benefit. As I said above, this is manifest destiny on a grander stage with more ignorant players.

moral obligation? with such mind-boggling timescales involved, who's to say we don't seed a planet with life, which later evolves into a race of brutal tyrannical, beings that dedicate themselves to eliminating all other life in the galaxy, including humans (in the future). Its a bit short sighted to assume all life will evolve in an either friendly or benign direction.

It's more of an "immoral" obligation to me. Why would we perpetuate something that generates far more suffering than pleasure?

Uplift anyone?

I'm all for human expansion into the universe. It is the next logical step. It would be helpful, though, if we could solve our terrestrial problems first- I hate to think that humans are, ultimately, little better than a pathogen- despoiling first and then moving on to the next host.
Anyway- this guy is an arrogant clown, and as another poster commented above, this is just one huge, ego-driven money shot. The universe is alive and well, and pervaded with life- hence the ubiquitousness of organic compounds and primitive life forms found in cometery and meteoric bodies. And that is just carbon-based life. The universe is fractal, and repeats the same pattern(s) at all scales and at all times. I have Zero interest in putting even one penny into this nincompoop's egomaniacal, angst-ridden scheme. If we can't get out there as we are, then that's just too bad- we will have failed as a life form to survive. Time to get it together, Humans!

If we don't do this then why should we bother to continue to exist now?

Mankind has no purpose other than to create more of itself like all other lifeforms that have ever existed or will ever exist in the future.

Therefore is it an individual's moral obligation to mankind. An individual who would act against this would be acting immorally towards mankind.

Ever used a condom?

Sanitary selbstbefriedigung. Sex is a waste of time unless you're planning on procreating. Doesn't mean I can't or won't help to propagate the species.

What is all his religious babbeling?

many of you know my stand on religion. Otto is enemy of god and godders! But I do believe in Purpose. Morals imply a purpose. Aren't you proud of what the human race can do? Aren't you thrilled at how far we've come, how far we may yet go? The universe is so USEFUL; that is a magnificent mystery and we deserve to find out why. It's great to look to a future of unlimited potential, a future for sentience without end. You can dwell on humanitys defects or marvel at it's potential. Your choice. Put some gratitude in your attitude.

Morals are a human construct, there is no moral imperative to do anything

"The only requirement for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Hee hee. Too lazy to look it up. Evil exists and we all know what it is; all of life knows what it is. It is waste, ineptitude, the loss of knowledge, the necessity of having to do something over. The universe is efficient. It's not that the universe is anthropocentric; it's rather that we are universal.

We don't have a "moral obligation" to seed the universe, we have no choice in the matter. Evolution and survival of the fittest demands we inevitably seek to seed everything and everywhere, it's our ultimate purpose, our raison d'etre, we are powerless to prevent it, just as we are powerless to eradicate the urge to merge.

Going strictly by the astounding titanic numerical odds, somewhere out there are hundreds, if not thousands of advanced civilizations which probably know all about us, have studied us, and then just filed our records away as being, well, a bit boring. If they get wind of our "plan" to spread our seed around, the first thing they might do is chuckle at our naive perceptions of the Universe, then perhaps pull out our dusty file and give it a star for at least being humorously well-intentioned.

Morals imply a purpose. Aren't you proud of what the human race can do?

No. Pride only makes sense with regard to _personal_ accomplishments. Being proud of a species (or country or race or skin color or family or whatever) makes absolutely no sense to me since I did absolutely NOTHING towards earning that pride.

Morals are a personal thing. There is no 'outside agency' that has imposed morals and no universal moral value system I can see that lives outside of humans.

Justifying what you want to do by what you think is right (without any external basis) is circular reasoning. It's a basic logical fallacy.

Thinking that "humans are meant to do X" is just the next step after tribalism, chauvinism and racism, (it's speciecism).

It seems that some never learn from the mistakes of the past - they just want to repeat humanity's mistakes on a grander scale.

The only moral obligation we have is to learn how to live as well as possible - in our own bodies and on our home planet. Morality arises from what we all share in common - and not only all humans, but all beings. For some, this is represented by God, but it can also be viewed from a secular perspective as Life - there is little if any practical difference other than the confusions we, ourselves, create.

If some carbon-based life forms of Earth are meant to survive, they will, and if they are all meant to perish, they will.

If we can't learn how to live well in our bodies here on Earth, we have neither right nor obligation to even contemplate spreading life forms from Earth elsewhere through the Universe.

No. Pride only makes sense with regard to _personal_ accomplishments

Not_True. You can take pride in being a part of something ie your school, country, or species. Just because you're a rock and an island doesn't mean anything when considering me or anyone else.

humans are meant to do X

Dawkins says we are constructed to do what our genes want us to do; ie Survive_to_Procreate. Humans have gotten quite elaborate at it. We can see that, in order to survive, we've got to leave the planet. Therefore our genes compel us to do this by the container they've constructed and all it can do, think, surmise, and imagine. And nobody said anything about any outside agency, Pudel. Humans can and do do everything for themselves.

If some carbon-based life forms of Earth are meant to survive, they will, and if they are all meant to perish, they will.

See antialias, this is religionism, the kind which would lead to the end of the species. Sit back and let god decide. No need to leave, this is our home. That's what Juden said in Breslau.

This guy is completely crazy. What good will it be to send bacteria evolved and adapted to live in Earth-like conditions on other planets, and also preventing those planets from developing their own, unique, lifeforms? The only moral obligation we have is to perfect medical science so that we eliminate suffering and death for human beings, and then send ourselves (instead of puny cells) to explore and colonize the Universe (while being careful not to destroy alien lifeforms).

It's time we abandon the fallacies of groupthink (the good of the species, of Terran life, of Christianity, etc) and start thinking about the good of individuals - you, me, and each of us. I simply don't care what happens after I die, and neither should any of us, because we have no rational reason to do so.

I simply don't care what happens after I die

I guess you haven't spawned yet, or have relatives who have.

"since extraterrestrial life is not currently known to exist, our first concern should be with preserving our family of organic gene/protein life that we know exists"

Well, I guess we'll know extraterrestrial life exists when it shows up all pissed off and determined to neutralize whatever is waging biological warfare against them.

I have another idea...let's use the few BILLION years we probably have left to come up with a better plan!

due to the unpredictable nature of Sun....they may make wonderful "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" on other planets.... the spirit will not be damaged only the body gets.

very creative idea.

"since extraterrestrial life is not currently known to exist, our first concern should be with preserving our family of organic gene/protein life that we know exists"

Well, I guess we'll know extraterrestrial life exists when it shows up all pissed off and determined to neutralize whatever is waging biological warfare against them.

I have another idea...let's use the few BILLION years we probably have left to come up with a better plan!

you mean a new form of life to replace bionic tissue? I saw a report that says injecting buckytubes into bone caused growth of chondriocytes. It made the bone harder and stronger. with a billion years we might be able to replce bones with nanotubes and eat buckyballs to replenish our selves.

The ESA sent a probe to phobos to expose earth microbes to the ambient environment of photbos after it lands. What ever trace gasses on phobos are there will be sucked into a culture container then the phobos's soil will be incubated after innoculation with the earth bugs. Of course they might escape and contaminate phobos. I've pointed it out a few times and nobody cares if they infect that moon with microbes.

Otto is enemy of god and godders! But I do believe in Purpose.

Thanks for explaining the origin of the antinomies between your comments. Replacing "god" by "Purpose" makes an interesting sect.

Morals are a human construct, there is no moral imperative to do anything

"The only requirement for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Sto antitheto - evil comes about by justifying all means to achieve a good "Purpose".

No. Pride only makes sense with regard to _personal_ accomplishments

Not_True. You can take pride in being a part of something ie your school, country, or species.

No. Some (unfortunately: many) people think their membership in a certain group (nation, color of skin, ideology) makes them happy and this kind of surrogate happiness is what they call "pride". Proper pride is based solely on personal accomplishment (like withstanding mainstream pressure without going mad).

Humans can and do do everything for themselves.

What is the definition for "everything"? Everything := all that can be and is done by humans?
We love circular reasoning. :)

At this point in time ,our moral obligation is just self-preservation and protecting ourselves from extinction.The rate at which we have already harmed our planet as a single species is seen all around us .Let's just focus on how to evolve into a more responsible species first and then we can think about where to go later and maybe then we will have developed better ways to find another home than by invading places with microorganisms and avoid the guilt of destroying others habitat unknowingly in the name of our own perpetuation.

Aren't we the product of this professor?

This project explains a metallic probe of unknown origin and composition, which landed on my back-yard. It was full of micro-capsules filled with some tasty matter. An inscription on the shell is still unclear, but I guess it means something like: "Our last hope". I really don't like garbage on my back-yard. I mean, we should seriously include a "return to sender" sticker. Just in case it will land on someone else's back-yard somewhere.

Please read the Extraterrestrial Imperative from 1978 from the rocket scientist Dr Kraft Ehricke, for a much more cogent argument.
http://www.airpow...cke.html

Sounds a bit like the moral imperative of 19th century Europeans to spread "civilization" to the "backward" parts of the world. The universe got along just fine well before we showed up and it will continue in good order long after we are gone. Get off your self-righteous high horse.

antinomies between your comments. Replacing "god" by "Purpose" makes an interesting sect.

I believe I did explain that Purpose as a motivator can be completely biological, zB the 'desire' of a species to continue because it's what it's genetics 'want'. Do not confuse semantics and lack of eloquence for being right and winning arguments, which Otto has.

No. Some (unfortunately: many) people think their membership in a certain group (nation, color of skin, ideology) makes them happy and this kind of surrogate happiness

Yes. We are social animals (most of us). Being a successful part of a group, feeling as a contributer to the groups success and accepted by the group as such, is a legitimate, and I insist a fundamental, source of what you humans call pride.

No opinion on the moral aspect of this, but practically speaking it seems a good idea to wait a few decades or centuries or millennia till we have some decent propulsion methods. Given current speeds and distances involved even a 10% improvement in speed is worth delaying the launch by a 1,000 years. And hopefully we can do better than 10% in 1,000 years.

On the other hand 2012 is around the corner so let's hurry up!

this is religionism, the kind which would lead to the end of the species. Sit back and let god decide. No need to leave, this is our home. That's what Juden said in Breslau.

Oh, I didn't say we shouldn't leave this rock when we feel like it. We just shouldn't pretend it's a moral obligation, destiny or some species (or genetic) imperative.

When a dictator takes over the next country it's because he wants to. There is no moral justification to it (although often a constructed one is presented for the gullible who need to feel they are 'justified').

When we go out to colonize other planets it will be the same: because we _want_ to. Nothing more. Nothing less. Not because we have an obligation or it is morally demanded of us. Let's not sugarcoat our motives here.

If we want to be _moral_ about it then we will first go and have a look at that rock to make sure it isn't occupied before we seed it.

Being a successful part of a group, feeling as a contributer to the groups success and accepted by the group as such, is a legitimate, and I insist a fundamental, source of what you humans call pride.

There's a difference between your "being a 'successful' part of a group" and my "membership in a certain group". Your phrasing contains the weakly defined word "successful" while my phrasing is robust. That's why the meanings of the two phrasings are not equivalent.

True pride stems from separating oneself from a group or several groups.
False pride is gained by mere membership in a group.

The pain of lacking personal achievements is healed by real or fictitious achievements of one's group. That's why so many people have an urgent desire for membership in some group.

The pain of lacking personal achievements is healed by real or fictitious achievements of one's group. That's why so many people have an urgent desire for membership in some group.

That and societal convention greatly reinforces group membership while it will spurn individual achievement.

When a dictator takes over the next country it's because he wants to.

If you have been following my rantings you may know I believe politicians have different motivations. Dictators are usually bowing to pressures to resolve land disputes along his borders; and so is his respective equal next door. His land is already engulfed in internal conflict, and the acquisiion of more land for his burgeoning populations is a solution he can offer; usually why he was able to wrest power in the first place.

It is the same with venturing into space; most easily-acquired resources will soon be consumed and humanity can look forward to a long slow decline punctuated by recurring disaster. There will be another Toba, another Tsunguska, another ice age, another pandemic; and there will be increased conflict over dwindling resources. And after each of these we will be left with less and less to work with unless we expand our resource base and spread ourselves around.

True pride stems from separating oneself from a group or several groups. False pride is gained by mere membership in a group.

You know, I think in every gen there are individuals with particular propensities to fill different niches; if given the chance. For instance some of us would become herders and grazers, some would hunt in packs, and some would tend to be soliary omnivores. So- are you a gazelle or a hyena or a bear? Some of us get he chance to fill our niche and find contentment but most are forced to compromise and are thus always a little bit resentful of it. Which is natural. C'est la Vie. Primates are by and large very social creatures. We dont have the physical tools to be able to live in the wild alone, though we may want to. Who knows? Maybe King Kong would be a reality given a New World to evolve into. Dont you wolverines out there feel the urge to look for it? Your own personal rock in the sky?

no, we have no obligation moral or otherwise to infest other worlds with the destructive virus that we call "human beings" - or any other earth based life forms for that matter...PERIOD...to do so would be IMMORAL and UNETHICAL...

no, we have no obligation moral or otherwise to infest other worlds with the destructive virus that we call "human beings" - or any other earth based life forms for that matter...PERIOD...to do so would be IMMORAL and UNETHICAL...

If you're that down on the species you could always do the world a favor and remove one from existence, but you probably don't have the stones to follow through on that conviction either.

I find it very sad how many people here label human pride as "racist", "arrogant" and "speciesism".
It's like calling an artist "an arrogant jerk" because he is proud of his creation.
Why is everyone such a misanthrope? Did the media brain-washed you so far that you see every humanbeing as a virus? Even your family? *facepalm*
It's really sad how unthankful people are of all the cultural and scientific achievements of humanity. You take computers, literature, art, fridges, bikes etc. as "an everyday routine" without thinking about the beautiful complexity of such things. *sighs*
I'm VERY thankful for all the archievements. And I'm PROUD to be human.

And for all the mysanthropic people with the "Who cares?!"-mentality: you are big-mouthed egoists, seriously. I can't stand such people.
I DO care about the future generation (including my children).

Pride implies a feeling of superiority (i.e. you are proud to be X but not Y). Therein lies the problem. Why not just skip the pridefulness? It doesn't do any good - only harm.

If you need to boost your ego somehow or alleviate a feeling of inferiority then try to achieve stuff yourself or _for_ others. Don't take credit for stuff that others do just because you are in the same group.

Feeling good because of what you have accomplished - understandable. Tke credit where credit is due but not beyond that.
Feeling good because of what others have accomplished? I don't get it.

Part 1

On-Topic:
Do you know that our bodies are clusters of billions of micro-organisms? Now to think of the "Global-mind"-theory:
Cities look like spreading cells and car-filled streets look like blood vessels. Now add modern communication (Internet) as nerve cells and you have an emerging Super-Organism.
And before people start to talk such things like "humankind is a virus - ask Agent Smith" I would like to point out that he is right and wrong at the same time. We are all viruses - just like every animal and plant. Life itself is a virus but that doesn't have to be a bad thing because not every virus is harmful.

And for all those pseudo-environmentalists who are against the spreading of terrestial life in the universe (because it could disturb the "harmony"):
do you have any idea how freakin' big the universe is? How much room we have to spread? The nearest solar system "Alpha Centaury" is 4 lightyears (!) away and the lenght of our galaxy is ca. 100.000 lightyears (!!!).

Part 2
Besides why should we leave everything as it is? The world is chaning anyway - we life in a dynamic universe and not in a static one.

@antialias

Pride implies a feeling of superiority

You're talking about one kind of pride: vanity or vainglory.
http://en.wikiped...ki/Pride
-Oddly enough, while most philosophers considered pride a virtue, religions tend to consider it a sin; you're not a closet godder are you? Some of that residual old Xian guilt left in there somewhere?

-Feeling good because you helped to accomplish something as part of a team which is far greater than you could do alone- priceless.

Humanity is greater than the sum of it's parts.

antialias_physorg:

No, it's a cultural problem, imho plus the "white guilt". Of course we shouldn't exaggerate - extremism is never good. But the kind of positive feeling about humankind is never wrong.

If you want to know - I'm studying art and design.
In my oppinion even the "average Joes"-kind of people are very important to drive humanity forward. Just think about it: there are people who can't draw - but they are fantastic singers. There are people who fail in maths - but they are fantastic hairdressers. There are people who aren't sportsmen but they are fantastic mechanicans.
Everyone is doing something (mostly unintentional) to drive humanity forward. Of course there are people such as criminals and the corrupted kinds - but the world was never flawless and life still exists.
*sighs* I don't know how to explain that (since my english knowledge is limited *laughs*) but I hope you understand what I mean.

Careful- I think undrgarmtgrl is another Berserker... The Saberhagen type.

@undrgrndgirl:
I sense a troll...

no, we have no obligation moral or otherwise to infest other worlds with the destructive virus that we call "human beings" - or any other earth based life forms for that matter...PERIOD...to do so would be IMMORAL and UNETHICAL...

If you're that down on the species you could always do the world a favor and remove one from existence, but you probably don't have the stones to follow through on that conviction either.

Sto antitheto - people whith higher ethics have an obligation to help making mankind kinder than it is now. To remove oneself from existence would be a betrayal of all the good people who have sacrificed so much in order for mankind to come a little step nearer to that goal.

I say there is no "moral imperitive to plant the seed of life elsewhere", shouldnt we worry about things on our own planet first before we try to emplant life on other planets.

otto:
You and I - judging from your vocabulary - come from the same country. We, of all people, should know from our history books what danger lies in being proud of what you _are_ instead of what you _do_.

It is sad to see that you (and many others here) have not learned that lesson. It seems that it must be taught repeatedly with blood, suffering and the horror of genocide for each generation to understand.

Given that we become ever better at snuffing out life on ever greater scales I fear there are not too many such lessons left before we cause our own, total extinction.

Either all humans learn the lesson of pride or all humans die at the hands of those who failed to do so.

This has nothing to do with 'god' (I'm an atheist). This is just history talking in a very loud and clear voice.

If an earthling can think to seed life elsewhere, could aliens elsewhere have gotten the same idea and seeded life here on earth?

Also consider what intentional panspermia does to Drake's Equation. Once a civilization gets advanced enough, it could travel to other worlds and seed, modify, or create life there. One civilization could seed tens, hundreds, thousands of worlds. That means life out there is far more likely than the Drake Equation indicates.

Feeling good because you helped to accomplish something as part of a team which is far greater than you could do alone- priceless.

Of course - when you have this feeling of having nothing accomplished by yourself and this pain in the neck of never being able to accomplish something by yourself then any "team" is priceless.
Membership fees and violence - the rise from zero self-esteem to "team pride" is worth it all.

Are people jerks because they are proud of their country? Are people jerks because they are proud of their children?
Do you know that none of all inventions (computers, space shuttles etc.) would be ever possible if people wouldn't work together? If people wouldn't pay taxes to finance such inventions and programs?
Do you think one inventor could build a space station? You have to distinguish "people with heads" from "people with hands" and both types of people are important. If everyone would be on their own -
it would be impossible for inventors and great minds to realise their projects without people who can finance and build it. We would still live in caves.

But fine. Go ahead. Be all emo about humanity.
I guess it must be "trendy" these days to hate ourselves. (See: the Emo subculture)

I'm agnostic, btw. And sometimes I hate those hardcore-Atheists as well as I hate creationists and other religious fundamentalists who don't tolerate the oppinions and worldviews of others.

Here is an interesting video. Maybe it will change your thinking - maybe not. It's just a suggestion.

http://www.youtub...Hok-W_PI

Are people jerks because they are proud of their country?

Yes.

Are people jerks because they are proud of their children?

No.

antialias_physorg:
Quote: "It is sad to see that you (and many others here) have not learned that lesson. It seems that it must be taught repeatedly with blood, suffering and the horror of genocide for each generation to understand."

Somebody seems to have the butthurt-and-emo-syndrome.
Just like people who still call all Germans nazis, thought the post-WW generation doesn't have anything to do with Hitler's bloody regime and disturbing racial fantasies. And most Germans I know are very tolerant. But they are very reluctant about national pride today (See Wikipedia "Pride" in Germany http://en.wikiped.../Pride). But you should have seen Germans during the soccer worldchampionship 2006 - it was one of the rare times where Germans felt something like a national pride. I'm not a German (actually, I'm Polish). I just wanted to point out that pride doesn't equal racism and arrogance. (maybe it's not a very good example but I hope you understand what I mean)

Just like people who still call all Germans nazis, thought the post-WW generation doesn't have anything to do with Hitler's bloody regime and disturbing racial fantasies.

True. But the mistakes people make are the same. Look at the US. You see 'pride in this' and 'pride in that' all over the place. Flag waving. Disrespect of other cultures in forign policies. It all seems terribly familiar.

Then look at what that pride does on the global scale. It's people are _dying_ because of that pride in large numbers.

Sports is a pretty harmless subject to be proud of (frankly I didn't feel proud of my germany's team because _I didn't play for it_. So why would I feel proud of _their_ accomplishments? I felt happy for them. But pride? No.)

However, pride in a country is not harmless.

Pride is not a necessity for doing great deeds. Inventors don't work 'for humanity'. They work for their _own_ vision.

Getting back to the article: The point of seeding the universe is, for us, to go out there - not for us to dump random 'biological weapons' on random planets.

Given that we are likely to invent slightly better engines tnan we currently have in the next million year or so we are then certain to overtake any seeds we send out now before they even reach their destination. So what's the point of sending them right now?

Then we might consider what our biological bombs would do to life that already exists at the destination. Simple life will have to compete for the resources (and either our sample will die out or the indigenous organisms will die out or they will go into an evolutionary arms race). If the planets doesn't have life then our organisms are unlikely to find it hospitable. aynways.

Intelligent life might view it as a biological weapon. Not a good way to make first contact (and since it's easy to track back such probes the preps - us - are easily spotted for retaliation)

Of course - when you have this feeling of having nothing accomplished by yourself

The presence of one does not imply the absence of others. One can be proud of many things. Euros still have the bitter taste of fascism in their craw, no? But feminist 1960s Blank Slate ultra-liberationism is also extremism; put to good use in destroying the pre-1950s religion and family society, and enabling over 1 BILLION abortions where it is preached. Be truly free- be a moderate.

Are people jerks because they are proud of their country?

Yes.

Are people jerks because they are proud of their children?

No.

Wholly subjective viewpoints... aquila-type. Crows are very social animals.

@antialias

danger lies in being proud of what you _are_ instead of what you _do

Otto knows he can be proud of many things at the same time and still be cool. He does not have to decide which is bad and which is good. Even vainglory on a cloudy day is good- for Otto.

We, of all people, should know from our history books what danger lies in being proud

A useful interpretation of history. Let us remember that our history books are soaked in Xianist self-deprecation- not enough time to edit it all out. One can feel pride without being greedy or pompous. One can be proud of what he or his group have accomplished without rejecting new opinions or change. These are the dangers you see in vainglory, yes?

It seems that it must be taught repeatedly with blood, suffering and the horror of genocide for each generation to understand.

Sorry, not into xian self-flagellation. Those things that we see in our history had to happen to prevent things far worse from happening. As it turned out, the best of what humanity has produced was preserved; no hard-earned knowledge has been lost; and the earth is about ready to hatch. Funny how that all worked out. Providence you say? Happenstance perhaps? Naw- it was stubborn human effort, the ability to accept the inevitable and to prepare for it, and that emotion which makes us want to preserve the things which mean the most to us individually and collectively, despite all odds - Pride. The Virtuous kind.

This chemist is a fantastic swindler!!! Look at this: Pay me a billion dollars and I will launch a bunch of crap in to space. Seriously, it'll work -- I Promise! The money?? Don't worry about the money; this is a moral obligation! What's a billion dollars in comparison with doing the 'right' thing? Oh brother... I hope this isn't paid for with my taxes.

Those things that we see in our history had to happen to prevent things far worse from happening.

I do hope you don't speak about the Native Americans, about Ugarit, about the Armenians in Turkey, about the European Jews. I admit not to understand the meaning of your "our".

One can be proud of what he or his group have accomplished without rejecting new opinions or change.

I just don`t see the point in it. Being proud of what other people did? Why? Whom does it help? Does it help you? Does it help others? No. It's a pointless activity.

Being proud of what _you_ did - sure, I can see that (though even that is pretty pointless. You did it. It's done. Why be proud of it?)

Pride doesn't add to the qulaity of what you did. Pride doesn't add to the quality of life (it just makes proud people seem like snobs)
Pride doesn't help in integrating people because it creates a group mentality.

Avoid it. It makes you a better human being.

@frajo
I've offended you once today, might as well go for broke:

Native Americans, about Ugarit, about the Armenians in Turkey, about the European Jews

People whose Job it is to foresee inevitable events, be they 7yrs of famine or a great Eurasian war, and to Plan for them and prepare by rearranging politics and economies to accomodate them; these People would also have an idea of how things would look afterward. A planned war should produce favorable political and economic results, yes?

Demographics is an ancient discipline. It goes hand in hand with politics and the office of rule. Leaders knew how they wanted the Eurasian continent to look by 1950. Combatants died on the battlefields, civilians died in the cities and starved before and afterward; obsolete cultures which existed in their hearts died with them. To Leaders the people are always the enemy.

The Sea People destroyed Ugarit and many of the cultures of the eastern Mediterranean. The biblical story of israels rampage through Canaan- was this a lament of what should have been done to pacify the region which was the probable source of the sea people? A valuable 'lessons learned' for future generations? 'Attack is the best defence'; a preemptive campaign might just have save Egypt, the Hittites, Mycenae, et al from ruin.

This is just how we will leave the planet. It will be Planned far beyond the initial forays, to maintain Stability and Progress. It will not be easy; only the brightest and most ambitious will prevail, as it always has been and always will be; ever since mankinds First Exodus out of Africa north to do battle with neandertals for their ancestral homelands.

Anyone interested in this should see my posts on the physorg furums about how to see human life on distant planets (eventually.)

Sending "living" adult human colonists to distant planets is unlikely to be possible with any technology within the next several thousand years.

however, terraforming a planet and re-constructing all DNA-based life from a computer archives using an incredibly advanced probe and incredibly advanced nanotechnology likely WILL be possible within a few hundred years.

The idea was to archive all DNA and as well the entire molecular structure of gametes for complex life, and cells for all single-celled organisms, then have the probe and it's nanorobots reconstruct life "from scratch" once it arrives at the destination.

This way, you avoid the need for "life support" entirely, AND the probe can run entirely on solar power, since it can safely drift as essentially a rock in interstallar space until it comes in range of the target star...

I'm not sure we can engineer something that will be functional a million years (or even a thousand) after it has been launched. Space is pretty hostile and high energy radiation abounds. Even with large shielding any sort of electronics (or basically any structured material) will degrade over time. And the flight times at sub-relativistic speeds are rather long.

I am prepared to donate some of my awesomeness to the cause.

some facts can be annoying...

THE WHOLE UNIVERSE WILL COLLAPSE ONE DAY !!
at least according to the big bang
and guess what, this is totally UNAVOIDABLE !

It's better to look under your feet before falling in an early-extinction manhole !

I see this entire discourse as the reason we shouldn't.

I see this entire discourse as the reason we shouldn't.

On the contrary. An intergalactic debate is the only real way to resolve this debate.

I have long thought people have made this issue way too complicated. I saw a guy on tv last night who actually caught a box jelley fish. He took off a tentacle and dropped him back into the water! These jelleyfish are small and almost invisible in the water. They kill lots of people! There are MANY more jelleyfish species that do not kill people or are more noticeable in the water. Are we so smart that we kill ourselves to save one of tens of thousands of species?
Do we think it bad to send life to a place that MIGHT already contain life???
We have a few scientists who want to spend their life looking for life in another part of the universe. They don't want us to mess up their studies. That is the only thing holding us back from doing this! The idea that "our" life would "infect" other planets is ludicrous! On a scale of 1 to 10, that concern is a 2 or 3. Getting life to other planets is a 10.
Their purposes are not highminded or intellectual. Their goal is to keep their grubby jobs.

And how would you feel if one of such 'random life bombs' from another species came here and started taking over our ecosystem (e.g. by out-performing all earthbound lifeforms - including humans)? Would you really like that? Or would you say that the aliens shouldn't have done that?

Blindly shooting random life samples into the universe could seriously piss someone off. This is especially foolish if you don't know who you're shooting at. Let's make sure no one is there before we chuck some bacteria at a rock, OK?

Additionally seeding the universe (at the cost of indigenous life) creates 'same-old, same-old' everywhere instead of giving us the chance to discover new and exciting lifeforms.

Yes, you can bulldoze this planet and seed corn everywhere since you don't seem to like biodiversity. But do you think that that is truly an enlightened way to go about things?

Do we think it bad to send life to a place that MIGHT already contain life???
We have a few scientists who want to spend their life looking for life in another part of the universe. They don't want us to mess up their studies.

We need to be very careful not to ruin the chance to learn as much as we can. What we learn from other lifeforms might eventually save our own species some day. Knowledge is the most important thing we possess and the only thing which protects us in a hostile universe.

And how would you feel if one of such 'random life bombs' from another species came here and started taking over our ecosystem ?

Blindly shooting random life samples into the universe could seriously piss someone off.

discover new and exciting lifeforms.

you don't seem to like biodiversity.

Some people believe too much science-fiction. If aliens were really flying around our galactic neighborhood, I am (almost) sure we would know it. The truth is, most life if it exists, would most likely be single-celled or like trees. They wouldn't "know" the difference. Dead animals don't move and are thus easier to study.
I am not for killing off any species that isn't a threat to ours. Even many of those can be managed, but cmon. Truth is: if we meet another civilization it will be difficult not to be in competition with them at some point. One of us will likely relegate the other to "cow" or "dog" status at the very least, no matter how enlightened or careful we are.

We need to be very careful not to ruin the chance to learn as much as we can. What we learn from other lifeforms might eventually save our own species some day. Knowledge is the most important thing we possess and the only thing which protects us in a hostile universe.

Some would say love, or enjoyment of life are more important than knowledge.

Many people take for granted that we have the time or ability to become "God-like" in our enlightenment. I say we have neither. We are no smarter than people were 3,000 years ago (or very little). All we have is more knowledge/technology.
Also, with the rate of change in society/tech, it is very difficult to say when we might kill ourselves off. I am not a pessimist at heart, but the math tells me that eventually someone will pull a trigger that could quickly knock us back a century or two at least. Imagine a few e-bombs knocking out all current electronics. Yikes!
Time is of the essence.

Who in their right mind thinks that evolution and survival of the fittest would only happen on earth. If there is a thinking society out there other than our own, why would we think that they do not have ways of fighting off "microbes". If they are capable of attacking us, then they are likely able to fight off our microbes. Surely they have been to other planets with other life forms that they have had to deal with. It should be old hat.
Not that I believe there are a bunch of aliens out there waiting to get sick from us. I am just saying that this argument is stupid when you think about it a little.
It is much more likely that they would feed off our life and send us a message: "Send more yummy food!"
(No, I do not really expect this to happen either.)

No aliens are out there watching us, just waiting to see when we will "grow up" as a society. Again, turn off the tv, and use your own brain for a change. If aliens were flying around in our neighborhood, I am sure if they found earth, they would find it interesting, and would maybe fly down for a look-see. We would have a breif conflict, and we would die or they would leave. It is not likely that they would fly around in our atmosphere just trying to get on tv.
All those tv scenarios are just way too unlikely.

If aliens were really flying around our galactic neighborhood, I am (almost) sure we would know it.

No. We are barely able to catalog rocks within our solar system that are larger than a kilometer in diameter, fairly reflective and stay still for long periods of time so that we can gather enough light from them. A UFO less than a kilometer in size that is moving at an appreciable speed? No way we'd be able to spot that.

Some would say love, or enjoyment of life are more important than knowledge.

I dunno. Seems like knowledge can save you from threat. Love and enjoyment don't. Looking through history knowledge has a far better track record at ensuring survival of 'life'. So I'd say it's the more important factor here.

Some would say love, or enjoyment of life are more important than knowledge.

Yeah I was talking about group ownership, as in what is most important to the species as a whole. Humanity 'owns' the vast pile of knowledge we've accrued, and we cant afford to lose any of it, as has happened throughout our history; Library at Alexandria for instance. I think the legend of Atlantis is in part about the tragedy of lost knowledge.

Its very instructive to air ones thoughts here and see how people perceive them.

If aliens were really flying around our galactic neighborhood, I am (almost) sure we would know it.

No. We are barely able to catalog rocks within our solar system that are larger than a kilometer in diameter, fairly reflective and stay still for long periods of time so that we can gather enough light from them. A UFO less than a kilometer in size that is moving at an appreciable speed? No way we'd be able to spot that.

I am just saying that if they are whizzing by earth to study us, then they aren't going to be playing hide and seek, and they will not look for Roswell, they will not likely have two legs, two arms, a head with two eyes in "front" and two ears on the side, a mouth, a nose, a neck, etc.

Why shouldn't they hide?
If they make themselves known they will spoil the object of observation (if you go to watch the typical behaviour of lower animals then you always take care to do it in a way that they don't notice you. That's basically the first rule of wildlife observation.)

Why do you think they need to get close? _We_ can take pictures of _planets_ in other solar systems. If they can fly through space they could probably sit on Pluto and watch what you have for breakfast or use small probes (heck, we can almost construct e-dust. What makes you think they can't?)

Some would say love, or enjoyment of life are more important than knowledge.

Ignorance is bliss, until the bliss is broken by something you don't understand.

This is absurd. We've already established ourselves on a path that will lead us to become "roadkill" on the evolutionary highway from "Animal" to "Machine", within the next 20 years or so. Come the Singularity, our meatbag existence will be Obsolete. We wont be around long enough to seed Venus, let alone planets around other stars. Leave it to the machines that succeed us to go contaminate the universe with our toxic residue. If you see value in biological life, you need to preserve it here, on Earth, in the immediate future, before machine intelligence realizes that we'd make better 'food' (as computronium) than 'companionship', as either its masters or servants...

Human ego massage. Cost: 1 Billion per session.